Apollo 12 and the "Indians" on the Moon - bizarre astronaut quote reveals censored transcripts & audio

Max Peck wrote:This is such a strange story that I don't even know where to begin or how to introduce it properly, so I'm just going to let the evidence speak for itself.

Here is a link to the Apollo 12 Lunar Module DSEA "black box" transcript:
http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/history/mission_trans/AS12_LM.PDF

On page numbers 274-275 (that is, on pages 277-278 of the PDF-file), we come across the following conversation between CDR Pete Conrad, LMP Alan Bean, and CapCom Edward Gibson:

05 11 59 32 Conrad: One picture of that rock under the descent stage - -

05 11 59 34 Bean: Shall do.

05 11 59 35 Conrad: - - Grab the handtool carrier and head for the solar wind and grab a picture of that. In the meantime, I'll lope off to the ALSEP and check the SIDE's; I'll meet you at point 1 at head crater.

05 11 59 43 Bean: Okay.

05 11 59 44 Conrad: If you see any Indians, don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes.

05 11 59 47 Gibson: Roger; we copy. And, Al, have you gotten the readings on the contrast charts?

05 11 59 55 Bean: Not yet and I plan to do that real quick.

Now, according to what we have always been told, THERE ARE NO INDIANS ON THE MOON.

However, Pete Conrad seems to be very straightforward about it, and as you can see in this quote, he flat out tells his crew-mate Al Bean to watch out for Indians. So what's going on here? Can there be any mistake about what he meant? And what about CapCom Ed Gibson's incredibly calm response: "Roger; we copy." He doesn't seem to be very surprised with any of this, now does he?

Interestingly enough, this exchange between Conrad and Bean occurred during the early stages of EVA-2, when the astronauts had been working on the lunar surface at the LM for about 15 minutes (roughly). They spent that time at the LM loading tools onto the handtool carrier and taking photographs, and they were about to start their first traverse towards Head Crater when the conversation I am highlighting took place. You can see in the quote how Conrad gives Al Bean some instructions on what to do: "Grab the handtool carrier...", etc. Then, right at the moment Conrad begins to walk away from the LM towards the ALSEP site, he makes that comment about the "Indians".

The fact that this conversation took place during an EVA is good news for us, because (obviously) the astronauts were in full communication with Mission Control during this time. What that means is, that the above quote from the DSEA-transcript must also have been recorded on the Air-to-Ground tapes back in Houston, and we can compare the two transcripts to see if these so-called Indians are mentioned there as well.

Here is a link to the Apollo 12 Technical Air to Ground Voice Transcript:
http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/history/mission_trans/AS12_TEC.PDF

The conversation in question can be found on page number 597 (that is, page 599 of the PDF-file):

05 11 59 33 Conrad: One picture of that rock under the descent stage - -

05 11 59 36 Bean: Will do.

05 11 59 37 Conrad: - - Grab the handtool carrier and head for the solar wind and grab a picture of that; in the meantime, I'll lope off to the ALSEP and check the SIDES; I'll meet you at point 1 at head crater.

05 11 59 49 Gibson: Roger; we copy. And, Al, have you gotten the readings on the contrast charts?

05 11 59 57 Bean: Not yet and I plan to do that real quick.

There can be no mistake that this is the same identical conversation, and yet Pete Conrad's comment about the "Indians" is completely absent here. And, as you can see, Conrad's missing comment is not the only discrepancy here. Al Bean's "Okay" is also missing, and there is a difference between the two transcripts in his first answer as well: "Shall do." (DSEA-transcript) or "Will do." (TEC-transcript). What is going on here ???

A detailed comparison of these two quotes reveals some additional insights that I think are definitely worth mentioning, but I'm still working on that so l'll get back to it later. The main point here is that the reason for all these discrepancies becomes apparent fairly quickly when we listen to the tape -- after all, this is "surface audio", so a recording of the conversation in question should be easy enough to find.

Here is a link to an audio file from the Apollo 12 Lunar Surface Journal website; it contains this same conversation, starting at 23:14 into the MP3:
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a12/a12a.1313706.mp3

Did you hear that ??? Here is my transcript of the audio conversation:

23 14 Conrad: One picture of that rock under the descent stage - -

23 17 Bean: Will do.

23 18 Conrad: - - Grab the handtool carrier and head for the solar wind and grab a picture of that; in the meantime, I'll lope off to the ALSEP and check the SIDES; I'll meet you at point 1 at head crater.

23 30 - - - SPLICE - - -

23 31 Gibson: Roger; we copy. And, Al, have you gotten the readings on the contrast charts?

23 38 Bean: Not yet and I plan to do that real quick.

Beginning to see a pattern, anyone?

Looks to me like NASA first censored the audio, and then "adjusted" the TEC-transcript so that it matches what we can hear. There's nothing wrong with the TEC-transcript itself, except that it's a transcript of the sanitized audio instead of the original Air-to-Ground tapes!

I have to say that the way NASA pulled these tricks on us continues to amaze me. I mean, let's face it: that splice in the audio is detectable, but only if you know it's there. In other words: even if you were to use the TEC-transcript to "read along" while you're listening to the surface audio, this particular conversation probably wouldn't attract your attention. You hear what you expect to hear, you read what you expect to read, and the flow of the conversation is natural enough to hide the short splice in the audio track. There's no reason to think twice about it, and in fact, it's only thanks to the declassified DSEA-transcript and the "oversight" it contains, that we are now able to find out about this incident at all.

So much for our friendly neighborhood space agency!

LunaCognita wrote:Wow! Great presentation Max! Excellent job sorting through that craziness in the Apollo 12 mission audio and transcripts. There is no question that multiple comments are missing and have been santized from the official mission audio and written transcript on the ALSJ site. That transcript audio you posted the link to rather blatantly shows how the comment was stricken from the public audio recording.

Now, if we assume the Conrad quote that is from the DSEA "Black Box" transcript is perfectly accurate, when CDR Conrad is saying the words "If you see any Indians, don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes", he is no doubt saying that in a joking manner. I know that English is not your first language Max, so just to make you aware of the possible context of this quote, that statement is one that most Americans of Conrad's generation would be very familiar with, both from school and TV, as well as from playing games as children like "cowboys and indians" (just like "cops and robbers"). What Conrad says there is actually a quote that is widely attributed to American General William Prescott, going back to the "Battle of Bunker Hill" in 1775, and Conrad would have definitely learned that saying growing up. If that is indeed an accurate quote, I would think given the context that Conrad is joking there.

Now, there is no question that you have shown that Pete Conrad's comment has been sanitized from multiple official transcripts, and conveniently, the actual audio evidence has been manipulated to remove/cover this particular statement entirely, so we cannot simply listen and verify for ourselves exactly what Conrad said. Once again, it seems that our only means of actually verifying the accuracy of Conrad's transcribed comment - the audio tape of his transmission - has the comment spliced out.

What this does of course is that it gives NASA the ability to censor things while at the same time maintaining the appearance of being fully transparent. It lets them lie to our faces while still pretending to show us and tell us everything, and unless we do what you did and actually dig through AND cross-check multiple transcripts against the actual audio recording, we would miss the clear evidence that demonstrates NASA are suppressing evidence!

So, assuming the DSEA transcript quote is indeed accurate, why would NASA edit this comment out? "If you see any Indians, don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes"

Well, as I see it, there are two possible reasons.
Possibility #1 - The comment could be interpreted as being overtly racist in nature, so NASA wished to avoid a potential PR issue and decided to omit it from the public record entirely (well, almost entirely). After all, the public cannot bitch about a controversial comment if the public never gets to hear it!

Possibility #2 - The quote that the DSEA transcription shows is not accurate. Conrad said something else that was even more provocative.

Now, I am sort of hesitant to even bring this up, because I admit right up front I cannot prove this at all. It is more of a "rumor" I have heard - a rumor that I believe has some validity though. I think that the quote as it appears in the DSEA transcript is largely accurate, with the exception of one word that has been changed. I don't think Conrad said "indians", I think he actually said "Aliens".

"If you see any Aliens, don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes"

I think Conrad was still saying it in a joking manner, but I think the real reason that comment was cropped was because he may have actually said "aliens", and that was a BIG no-no on the public radio loop according to the rules of the Dead Moon Dictum. They simply changed the one word in the DSEA transcript and then eliminated our only means of verification - the actual audio evidence from the tapes.

Either way, I don't think there is any question that this example you have highlighted here demonstrates yet again that NASA had the ability to remove controversial comments from the public record. It demonstrates this censorship capability is not some theory being floated around - it was indeed implemented during Apollo in order to suppress evidence that "someone" determined the public was not mature enough to hear. That makes this find you have highlighted incredibly important! Great job my friend!

http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/history/mission_trans/AS12_LM.PDF

131:59:33 Conrad: (Get) one picture of that rock under the descent stage;...

131:59:36 Bean: Will do.

131:59:37 Conrad: ...(then) grab the Hand Tool Carrier and head for the solar wind and grab a picture of that. In the meantime, I'll lope off to the ALSEP and check the SIDE. I'll meet you at Point 1 at Head Crater.

131:59:49 Gibson: Roger; we copy.

[A frame from the 16-mm film at about this point shows Pete as he heads for the ALSEP site with the bolt cutter on his back. Scan by Ulrich Lotzmann.]

131:59:51 Gibson: And, Al, have you gotten the readings on the contrast charts?

131:59:57 Bean: Not yet and I plan to do that real quick.

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a12/a12.trvhead.html

Max Peck wrote:@ LunaCognita & Skywalker

Thanks for the response guys! Skywalker, good job on checking the on-line version of this quote in the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal. Conrad's comment is missing there as well and I completely forgot to mention that. It's an important clue I think, because the ALSJ makes use of the on-board comments from the "black box" transcripts quite extensively, and you can be sure they know about this quote as well as we do. The fact that they chose to ignore it comes with their territory I guess, but that doesn't mean it's okay for them to "steer" people's way of thinking by presenting only what they (and NASA) deem appropriate. I'm sure that many people get their information directly from the ALSJ without checking the original documents (I know I have) and this missing quote just shows that they cannot be trusted either!

LunaCognita, that's a very interesting rumor about the "aliens"! Thanks for sharing that - of course there is no way for us to verify if that is what Conrad actually said, but it certainly makes you wonder doesn't it?!
Still, the suggestion that Conrad's comment was meant as a humorous expression is more acceptable to me now that I've read your comprehensive explanation of it. If true, it wouldn't really make much difference wether he said "Indians" or "Aliens", and it would turn this incident into a naughty but justifiable PR-exercise on NASA's part. Removing that comment to avoid any awkward questions it may have prompted does make sense, and I suppose that is a real possibility. Thanks for that background info because, as you already guessed, I was not familiar with this expression at all.

Skywalker wrote:Americans do in fact use that quote in a humorous way (i have done it too)

Thanks to you as well, Skywalker, for confirming this because as I said, I had never heard of such an expression before, and this quote of yours surprised me: is this really such a well-know expression? Not that I have a problem with it, I'm just curious. You should know that I always try to be as objective as I possibly can about any finds, and the first thing I actually did when I ran into this Indians-quote, was grab the dictionary to see if there could be a "down to Earth" explanation that I was not familiar with. I think you'll agree that the word "Indians" doesn't have many alternative meanings, and that's why it didn't make sense to me why an astronaut on the lunar surface would even mention this at all. Discovering that the comment was removed from the TEC transcript and cropped out of the audio only raised my suspicion levels, and so this was all quite puzzling to me.

One thing I would like to say though is that, while this comment may have been meant as a joke (especially if you consider the source), I don't think it's 100% conclusive. It would be a slam dunk from a skeptic/debunker perspective, because they would obviously say "Well, there is nothing up there, so it must be a joke" and we all know that just isn't true. There is always the possibility that Conrad was dropping a real hint, and of course that would have been even more reason for NASA to get rid of it and avoid any possibility of people beginning to think about what he may have meant.

So, case closed? Well, maybe not. I was hinting at the fact that a detailed comparison leads to some more insights, and there is a little more to this story than I initially thought. I had been working on this quote on the assumption that the DSEA transcript is accurate, and because the tapes are "lost" there is no way for us to verify if they really are accurate. However, a closer look at these quotes reveals that the DSEA transcript has been tampered with as well, and here is why:

First, listen to the conversation on audio again, and keep an eye on the amount of time it takes for Conrad to speak. To illustrate my point, I am including the three quotes again below, but instead of using the actual audio time and original MET/GET times from the transcripts, I substituted them with a simple timer, so that we can compare the three sources more easily. Let's start with the audio:

00 Conrad: One picture of that rock under the descent stage - -

03 Bean: Will do.

04 Conrad: - - Grab the handtool carrier and head for the solar wind and grab a picture of that; in the meantime, I'll lope off to the ALSEP and check the SIDES; I'll meet you at point 1 at head crater.

16 --- SPLICE ---

17 Gibson: Roger; we copy. And, Al, have you gotten the readings on the contrast charts?

24 Bean: Not yet and I plan to do that real quick.

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a12/a12a.1313706.mp3 (@23:14)

Note that it takes Conrad 15 seconds to complete the entire sentence, starting with "One picture of that rock..." all the way up to "...I'll meet you at point 1 at head crater." This includes Al Bean cutting in with "Will do." After Conrad stops talking, there is a short pause of about 1-2 seconds, followed by the splice and half a quindar tone. So, that's a total of about 16-17 seconds until Ed Gibson starts speaking: "Roger; we copy...".

Looking at the TEC transcript, we see pretty much the same thing:

00 Conrad: One picture of that rock under the descent stage - -

03 Bean: Will do.

04 Conrad: - - Grab the handtool carrier and head for the solar wind and grab a picture of that; in the meantime, I'll lope off to the ALSEP and check the SIDES; I'll meet you at point 1 at head crater.

16 Gibson: Roger; we copy. And, Al, have you gotten the readings on the contrast charts?

24 Bean: Not yet and I plan to do that real quick.

http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/history/mission_trans/AS12_TEC.PDF (p.599)

Now look what happens when we do the same with the Lunar Module DSEA transcript:

00 Conrad: One picture of that rock under the descent stage - -

02 Bean: Shall do.

03 Conrad: - - Grab the handtool carrier and head for the solar wind and grab a picture of that. In the meantime, I'll lope off to the ALSEP and check the SIDE's; I'll meet you at point 1 at head crater.

11 Bean: Okay.

12 Conrad: If you see any Indians, don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes.

15 Gibson: Roger; we copy. And, Al, have you gotten the readings on the contrast charts?

23 Bean: Not yet and I plan to do that real quick.

http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/history/mission_trans/AS12_LM.PDF (p.277-278)

Mmmh! Looks to me like this is quite impossible. We can hear and verify for ourselves on audio that it took Conrad at least 15 seconds to finish his sentence with the instructions for Al, and yet this DSEA transcript claims that it only took him 11 seconds. In fact, this transcript makes it look like Conrad gave the instructions AND made the Indians comment in 15 seconds! Now, I'm willing to go one second either way on the stated times, but there is NO WAY Conrad managed to get all that out of his mouth in only 15 seconds - and we have the audio to prove it! :hurry up!:

As far as this quote is concerned, I think the most likely explanation is that the stated times in the DSEA transcript were adjusted (compressed) to keep the timeline in sync with the censored audio. In other words: the actual times and comments from the REAL original DSEA tapes were processed separately, and in this case things got messed up because someone forgot to remove the Indians comment, and there is not enough "room" for it in the adjusted timeline. This is confirmed by the fact that we cannot hear Al Bean's "Okay" cutting in anywhere when Conrad is still talking to him (which is logical), and it demonstrates that the 11-second mark is fabricated. They're messing with the timeline again!

With that in mind it may be interesting to look at the way this comment was cropped out of the audio as well, but I'll let you guys think about this one first.

Cheers!
Max Peck.

LunaCognita wrote:Fantastic followup info there Max! That is a further excellent breakdown that gets into the timeline "padding/buffering" and manipulation that was going on when they were sanitizing comments. It really is difficult to sort through the mission transcripts where you have to not only read the comments, but also try to pay attention to the MET timeline to see if it syncs up correctly. Great job getting the stopwatch out and really sorting through the layers to highlight this evidence!

The difficulty is further compounded because as you have no doubt noticed, some transcripts display the MET time as "total hours, minutes and seconds" - so an MET of "131:20:15" for example would mean 131 hours, 20 minutes, 15 seconds after liftoff. Other transcripts display the MET as "days, hours, minutes, seconds", so the same MET can also be shown as "05 11 20 15".

NASA use these two different MET display techniques on purpose - because it makes it harder on anyone aggressively researching through the transcripts to piece things together and figure out the way these timeline and sanitizing games are played. It forces you, the researcher, to continually have to do math in order to calculate the alternate MET that a different transcript uses so you can match timelines. It really is just one more sanitizing technique that NASA made sure to exploit as part of their arsenal of obfuscation. It is just one more preventative layer that creates one more step in the research process that every investigator will be forced to continually deal with when reading through and cross-checking the different transcript evidence. NASA does not let the truth come easily. They make us work for it!!

That quote about the "indians" that Conrad was transcribed as saying - it is not really a common expression that you would hear today in America, but back when Conrad was a kid growing up, it definitely would have been pretty well known by just about everyone. Really, saying "If you see any Indians, don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes" essentially became a standard sort of American "war cry".The quote goes back to the late-1700s and the American Revolutionary War, back when the Yanks and British were shooting muskets at each other, and muskets had terrible accuracy. The idea was that if you had an enemy charging at you, you were supposed to wait until you could actually see the "whites of their eyes" before shooting your musket, because that would mean the enemy was close enough to you that you would have a better chance of actually hitting your target. Over the centuries, the quote sort of became a part of American military vernacular. I would guess that if you were to say that quote to an American soldier who is in combat in WWII (or even Afghanistan right now) for example, he would probably interpret it to mean "make sure you can hit what you are shooting at" - in other words, don't waste ammunition, and make all your shots count.

I can completely understand how that comment would strike you as being very odd, because it really is very much an "American" expression I think. All American schoolchildren learn about the "Battle of Bunker Hill in 1775", and they would learn that quote, because Bunker Hill was considered a victory for the American revolutionaries. Even though they lost control of Bunker Hill, the Americans inflicted massive casualties on the British there, really demonstrating their resolve to England. (of course, those same "Americans" who fought at Bunker Hill would today be called "terrorists", but that is another topic entirely!). Regardless, that quote is really an American "patriotic" statement, and Conrad was no doubt applying it in a humorous/joking way here.

Nonetheless, that point does not in any way diminish the significance of all this evidence you have compiled here Max. The bottom line is that your presentation provides more demonstrable proof that NASA not only had the capability, but in fact did manipulate not only audio recordings but also multiple transcribed documents and timeline evidence in order to sanitize comments that they decided they did not want the public to hear. You have done even more than that though, because you have also demonstrated that NASA was not only sanitizing things that could be deemed to pose a credible threat to national/global security and stability, but that they would also edit things out for pure propaganda purposes. It is blatant CENSORSHIP they were engaged in, coming from a taxpayer-funded organization that many people today still believe was being totally transparent and 100% open about the Apollo program.

If is not like NASA edited this comment out because they were deeply afraid of an indian uprising in the American heartland or anything like that. There was no real "interests of national security" argument here that could justify NASA throwing their claims of transparency aside and editing this comment out, so that means - assuming the quote is accurate - they were editing it purely for Public Relations reasons - just so they did not look bad to the public. Of course, if Conrad did actually say "aliens" rather than "indians", then the Dead Moon Dictum would have allowed NASA to implement their broad interpretation of Executive Order 10501 and legally/justifiably remove the offending comment from the audio and transcript evidence. Sadly, we will probably never know what Conrad really said!

Keep this point in mind - if NASA are willing to do something like this, taking an offhand joke made by Pete Conrad and editing that out of the transcripts and cutting it from the audio tapes just to avoid a tiny bit of potential embarrassment, then one can only imagine the lengths they went to in order to remove comments that really had a bearing on "national and global stability"!

Max Peck wrote:@ LunaCognita

LunaCognita wrote:It really is difficult to sort through the mission transcripts where you have to not only read the comments, but also try to pay attention to the MET timeline to see if it syncs up correctly.

My point exactly. At normal "reading speed" it all becomes a jumble of numbers and unless you make a real effort, it's impossible to follow the conversation and keep an eye on the timeline as well. And when you do make an effort, the differences in MET time notation you highlighted make a direct comparison more difficult, and discrepancies no longer stand out. The evidence is still there but it's effectively hidden, and like you said you really have to do the math to find anything. Usually I don't pay special attention to the transcript times, and in this case I didn't even notice the discrepancy until I was piecing together my initial post about this topic. That forced me to pay close attention to what I was writing, and only then did it occur to me that the timing was off. Very sneaky!


@ Skywalker
First of all, I really appreciate that you're making such an effort to explain the context and background information relating to Conrad's remark. I am aware though, of what you were calling "an ongoing sticky situation for hundreds of years between the Native American Indian and the U.S. Government". Here in Europe we are taught about this in school as well, but obviously not by far in as much detail compared to what you would learn about it in America. It's just not part of our culture and that's the main reason I couldn't really place Conrad's comment until you pointed it out. Thanks for all the information Skywalker, and you too Luna, but I get the idea now so enough with the history lessons already!

"American Indians are very under-represented in the fields of science and engineering," said Gerald Gipp, Ph.D., executive director of the American Indian Higher Education Consortium. "The program is a critical step toward changing that equation by encouraging young American Indians to pursue careers in science and engineering while also building a welcoming environment that nurtures their career path."

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2006/jun/HQ_06237_American_Indian_Education.html

This article you highlighted shows that NASA is very aware of the sensitivity of the situation, and they are obviously trying their best to be politically correct about it. It would make sense if they scrubbed Conrad's comment as a precautionary measure to avoid any awkward questions, but if they failed to do so and people actually complained about it, that would make even more sense. I haven't been able to confirm this story anywhere either, but I'll take your word for it: it's a possibility and it would have been a really embarrassing situation if that's what happened.

Skywalker wrote: last i checked those "skeptic/debunkers" have never seen a real UFO nor been to the Moon so no need to worry about them

Well, I can't argue with that :big grin: and I have to admit, you make a very good point with the suggestion that Conrad was trying to "make light of the situation" with everything that was going on when they went to the Moon! The Condon Report and Project Blue Book should indeed be taken into account here, and it looks like you caught me. Oops... When I'm working on minute details such as this quote, I sometimes tend to lose sight of the bigger picture and forget that all of this happened before I was even born. Those were very different times back then!

Regarding the Apollo 11 and 12 UFO encounters: good points again and thanks for bringing that up because I was thinking the same; especially the Apollo 12 encounter was a real unidentified flying object as far as I'm concerned. Luna pointed it out nicely in one of his movies and I verified it from several different sources myself: definitely not the S-IVB stack as NASA would like us to believe.

If Conrad's quote from the transcript is accurate, all of the above makes me lean more towards the real hint/making light of the situation again instead of the "slam dunk" joke, so good defense there Skywalker! And let's not forget about the possibility that Conrad may have really said "aliens" instead of "Indians" either.

To get back to the topic of the removal of this quote, I think we've covered it all and I don't have anything else to add. It's about time I leave this quote alone anyway because I'm beginning to see "Indians" everywhere.

To summarize, I think the way this comment was cropped out of the audio is the most significant clue here. It's backed up by the discrepancy in the transcripts that this is not a case of the PAO "accidentally" cutting in and at the same time conveniently "filling the gap" and hiding whatever the astronauts were saying. There can be no doubt that there is a section of the timeline missing and as Luna pointed as well, it is blatant censorship! Wether it was done because of PR-reasons or National Security reasons (or both) is something the readers should make up their own mind about, but the fact that NASA went to extreme lenghts to remove this fairly innocent quote from the official records should give you an idea of what they did with the more revealing conversations.

Cheers!
Max Peck.